SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome to Mom Sprain as the Coffee Stain, the only podcast clinically proven to raise your blood pressure and your dopamine. I'm Kayla, Millennial Mom, current chaos coordinator of two spoiled giants who think budget is a TikTok sound. In this episode, Crystal and I had the opportunity to talk with Cameron Cameron, excuse me, Alarokie, triple certified life and relationship coach, author of Buy Connected to Me, The Blueprint, and podcast host of Married and Connected. Well, let's jump on in the Thank you for joining us today, Cameron, Alaricki. Um, why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Yeah, so I am a Gottman certified marriage coach. I've been coaching for about nine years, and I've coached over a thousand couples and individuals. I don't just cut coach couples, I coach individuals who want to make their marriage better, and their partners just really aren't on board yet, or um even singles who are wanting to have better relationships. So I do that. Um I'm a pilot wife, a mom to two boys. Um yeah, that's pretty much pretty much my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, two boys, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Yeah, 17 and 17 and five.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah, that's that's a big deck gap. Yep. Yeah, wonderful. Well, um, I'm gonna jump right in today. And one of the most important things that jumped out to me was uh you say that marriage is your most important team. What do you mean by that? And why do you think so many couples stop treating their marriage like a team once kids come along?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yeah, that's a great question. So um, what I mean by it is your most important team is that you and your partner, your spouse, you are um, it's you two against the world. And the problem with this is is that once people get married, and I wouldn't even say after kids come along, it's it's sometimes even before that, but kids just kind of amplify what's already not working in your marriage. And so um what happens is that you guys start to be you versus your spouse versus the world. And the reason that this happens is there's five stages to every relationship. The first stage is the c the honeymoon stage. So you guys are newlyweds, everything's cute, the way that they chew is cute, like everything's cute. And then you enter the power struggle stage, and the power struggle stage is like where your authenticity starts to really show. You're not so much um blinded by love anymore. You're not so much like the filters aren't there of like rose-colored glasses, if you will. And so what happens is then we start looking at them and it's like, oh, actually, the way that you chew your food makes me want to slit your throat. And so we start going that route versus actually sticking with the team. You start letting everything, this is the most important part, you start letting everything else come in between you and your marriage. So the kids come first, your job comes first, your friends come first, your hobbies come first, things like that. And then that's what happens, and the relationship kind of gets stagnant or um becomes a war zone.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

So there's a point in marriage where couples can start feeling more like coworkers instead of partners, you know, who's picking up the kids, who's making dinner, who paid that bill, who did the budget. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah. And how do couples recognize when they've like slipped into coworkers slash roommates instead of like husband and wife? Like, how do they realize that so they can actually start reconnecting?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah, so you're gonna feel it, first of all. You're you're definitely gonna feel it. There's gonna be a lot more um disconnect, you're gonna feel the disconnection, but there's gonna be probably a lot more tiny spats, like things that normally wouldn't irritate you that have started to irritate you. Also, pay attention to the conversations that you're having. There should be there's six types of conversations that you and your spouse should be having on a at least a weekly basis, if not daily. And so those types of conversations are obviously logistics. I'm guaranteeing that every single one of these listeners are fantastic at doing these. This is the, hey, this be this bill needs paid. This, you know, what do you want for dinner? Um, you know, this kid's got practice at this time, this kid's got practice at this time, who's taking who to who, you know, who to what? Right. Those kinds of things. Teamwork, okay? These are the ones that are um also kind of fit into the logistics category sometimes as well. That's the who's doing what, who's going where? Um, you know, I've got this meeting. Can you cover dinner and bathtime tonight? Like that kind of thing. Okay. Then we go into um emotional bids, which are interesting because a happy marriage needs you to turn towards your spouse at least 80% of the time whenever they bid for your connection. This can be a text. Hey, how's your day? Um, what's going on? What's new? You know, what do you um, hey, I was just thinking about you, sending you a song, sending you a picture, any of those kinds of things, asking for your opinion. Those are those are bids for a connection. You can also bid for each other's connection over a hundred times when you're out on a date and you guys are sitting across from each other at dinner. It's a touch, it's a look. It's a, you know, the look that you give your partner when you're ready to go. But like if somebody else is looking at you, they're not going to be able to tell what you're thinking or saying. Yeah. Right. Yep. So those emotional bids for connection of like, hey, let's bounce. Those kinds of things that only your partner knows, those secret code words or inside jokes or things like that, those are all emotional bids. So, and and what's happening is you're bidding for their connection in those moments. Okay. The second one, or sorry, the fourth one is gonna be vulnerability. Um, conversations that involve vulnerability. Vulnerability and humility are two of the sexiest traits that you can have in your marriage. So anything like, hey, I'm scared about this, I'm struggling with that, my top five stressors are X, Y, and Z, you know, those kinds of things where you are actually vulnerable with your partner, that's going to be really important. Um, the next one is going to be, so number five is going to be intimate expressions. And intimate expressions are actually um not something that you want to do while you're in the in the middle of it, but after you are done getting busy, talk about it. What did you enjoy? What did you not enjoy? Um, you know, what was your favorite part? I really liked it when you did X, Y, and Z. Things like that. So when you guys are talking about it, if you can't, and this is this one's really hard. I think out of the six of them, this is probably the one that people are missing the most because it's just kind of like, let's get a quickie done, like I'm tired, let's get it over with, whatever. We're not talking about our intimate life. We're not talking about what's working, what's not working, what we would like to try, um, how to make it a little bit more spicy in the bedroom, things like that. We're not talking about those things as much as we should be. And the reason that it's important to talk about it is because if you do the same thing over and over and over, eventually, especially when you're married for years and years and years, it gets boring. Like you're you're kind of like, eh, you know, I'm I'm over this, right? Right. And then you don't want to do it as much. And so then, like, that's also what leads to that disconnection. It leads to things kind of getting wonky between the two of you. You're not on the same page really anymore. And then the last one, so number six is conflict resolution. This one's also really big. And this one's also kind of at the end here because it's also not done very well. When we were growing up, we maybe didn't see our parents repair after they had an argument. They argued and either the next day everything was fine because they repaired after we went to bed, or maybe they didn't repair at all and it just got swept under the rug. Or maybe we saw them give each other the silent treatment for three days or three weeks or three months or however long it was. And so we learned, we didn't learn healthy conflict resolution. So when we get married ourselves and we have a conflict, rarely is it getting repaired. And this is what I see the most with working with clients is that there's so much resentment and bitterness and anger that's been built up because conflicts are not getting repaired. They're just getting swept by the wayside or stacked on a table somewhere to come back to later. And, you know, it's higher than our to be red pile. And it's it's just not happening. And so, um, and a lot of times it's because they don't know how. So, you know, one person's just like, oh, sorry. Well, these are things that we should be teaching our kids too. So one of the things that I teach my clients is a five-finger apology. I'm sorry for what did you do? Take accountability. I know it impacted you in this way. And explain that. Show that you understand that what you did impacted them and how. And then um, the fourth finger is in the future, I'm going to, what are you gonna do to rectify this to make sure that this doesn't happen again? And then the fifth finger is, will you forgive me? So you've hit all five apology languages just in that one apology. And these are things that you can teach your kids too, because a lot of times we're taught to say sorry in like kindergarten preschool stage, and we're not taught a proper apology any other time in our life. So, you know, your kids are old enough, even by the age of like five, to start giving a full-fledged apology every time they they mess up. So, um, you know, this is the thing is that statistics show that marriages that you can fight almost every single day. You can have an, and by fight, I mean like argument, right? Right argument every single day. And if you repair every single time, it's not gonna matter. Your marriage is actually still going to be what you consider happy and fulfilling 20 years down the road simply because those arguments are getting repaired. Whereas if you're not repairing, then you're also not as likely to say that your marriage is happy and fulfilling. So that's kind of a long-winded answer, but yeah, that makes total sense.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Because I see what you're saying, because resentment can, sorry if you heard my chair, I had to adjust, but uh, I can see how resent resentment can like build up, and especially like if you, you know, both sides are feeling like, well, I'm constantly doing this and I'm bogged down. And then it's like you said with the bedroom. If one person's like not bored of it yet and the other person is, then that that creates a, you know, a disconnect. And you're just there's just all that resentment that builds and builds and builds. And then if you're having arguments and you're not resolving them, that just adds it to the pile. So I totally understand what you're saying with that. It makes sense to why the last two are definitely the hardest. Yeah. Um, because I could see many people not talking about what was just done in the bedroom. And it's like you said, when you have kids and stuff, a lot of the times it's like, okay, let's just get this done. We gotta do this still, or you know, like I need to be in bed because of I have to get up at 4:30 or whatever. And we really shouldn't look at it that way. And I think you're right, if we talked about it together more, you know, or say, hey, I would like to try this, or we could try this. How do you feel about that? Even just by talking about it, it kind of like creates that excitement, you know. And I I think that's awesome. And then of course, the last one, you know, nobody wants to admit they're wrong. And in a five is in the five-step apology, that's exactly what you're doing. Yeah. You're saying, I'm sorry, and I'm wrong. And nobody wants to do the I'm wrong part. They just want to do the part where when they were little and they hit their brother with, you know, the remote, and their mom said, Tell him sorry. Yeah. And they said, Fine, sorry, and walked away. Yep. That's what they want to do. And it's like, well, that's not an apology. So, and that doesn't resolve anything. So I get what you're saying. Um, and that kind of moves into my next question because, you know, we do learn things when we're younger that help prepare us for marriage. And you talked about becoming qualified for marriage, which is an interesting and maybe even controversial, controversial way to put it. What does being qualified for marriage mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah. So I'll actually use uh a personal story here. I was actually having um a coffee yesterday morning with a girlfriend that we grew up together, and we were talking about her marriage, and she said, um, you know, so we were we were asking, are you happy in your marriage? Are you happy on yours? And she's she said, Well, we're status quo. And I said, Okay, but is that good enough for you? And she said, Well, not really, but it's been that way for the last 12 years. And I said, Okay, but why? And she goes, Well, because Cam, she's like, We we got married when we were 22, and he was the first person that I ever dated. And so it was just like, that's what you did once you've been together for so long. And that right there is the exact reason why I say we're not qualified to be in a marriage. Because maturity is not guaranteed simply because we age. We are not mature enough to make these decisions. We think about having a wedding, we think about having kids, we think about having a house. We don't think about the responsibility that goes into all of those when we're, you know, when our prefrontal cortex is barely even formed, let alone solidified, right? And so when we're going through this, being qualified means have you worked through your childhood traumas? Are you mature? Do you know how to repair well? Do you know how to not be selfish? Do you know how to not be defensive when your partner comes to you about things? Do you um do you put your partner, do you put their needs above your wants? Things like that. And for a lot of us, when we get into, I mean, and and I'll speak for myself as well here, the answer is no. I had to learn to do those things. I had to learn, you know, I had to do the work on myself to become a better wife. And that's what's now then led me to be able to coach others to do the exact same thing. We had to learn, my husband and I had to learn how to have a better marriage because we were a freaking train wreck when we got married. So, like those kinds of things, um you have to, you have to learn. It's a it's a skill. And unfortunately, when couples are struggling, it's because there is a skills gap somewhere. We just aren't sure where. Gotcha. So we have to fix that.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

So I get it where childhood experiences play like a major role in the relationships we have as adults, and you know, they help us become qualified for marriage. Um, how do the marriages and relationships we grew up watching influence the way we communicate, argue, love, and connect with our own spouse? And what if we didn't really grow up seeing, like what if, you know, we had co-parents instead of our parents being in like relationships, you know, how do you think that influences how we look at our own relationship?

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah, that's a really great question. It is everything. Um, so what happens when we're born is that we're all given like this imaginary suitcase. And throughout life, we take this imaginary suitcase everywhere we go. And inside of it, we're putting in our exposures and our experiences and our education and all the things. And then when we get married, uh us and then our spouses are dumping their suitcases out on the middle of the living room floor. And then you spent the rest of your marriage, however long that is, sorting through that stuff. Now, in the case of co-parents, like your parents did this exact same thing. They were learning and they were growing alongside of you as well. And so as they were sorting through their suitcases, they decided, you know what? I actually don't like anything that you have in your suitcase. But when they grabbed all of their stuff and a huff to leave, they also took some of their part, their, you know, your other parents' stuff with them. So what happens is when you're looking at your mom and dad, if they're divorced, there's a really good chance that they didn't co-parent well. They bashed each other to, you know, to each other. So then what do you learn? Not only do you learn that part of you, you learn shame from that because you are half one and half the other. So you're learning shame. You're also learning that it's okay to backstab and badmouth another, another adult and another person that you say you loved. You're learning that love is not unconditional. It's actually very conditional. You're learning that is so you're learning all of these things. You're learning how to be a wife, you're learning how to be a woman. Um, you know, little boys are looking at their dads, learning how to be men, how to be husbands. They're looking at their moms and seeing what's acceptable and what's not. They're, you know, little girls are looking at their dads and saying, okay, this is the type of man that is considered quote unquote good, that is considered the best man that I know. So this is the type of man that I'm gonna marry growing up. So we're you're they're catching way more than you're sitting down on the couch and saying, okay, so here's how you choose a spouse and here's how you act. I didn't get that lesson. I didn't, I my parents didn't talk to me about that stuff. But yet I still learned. And unfortunately, that's what led to my first divorce is that I I I did not learn well. It also led to my second divorce. And then in order to reconcile with my second husband, we had to both sit down and say, all right, we've got these suitcases. 90% of the crap that's in the suitcase is just that crap. And so we're just gonna have to throw out half of it and start over. And we're gonna have to start borrowing from other people and being like, all right, what do we really want? What do we what do we want to to have? Because obviously neither one of us wanted to emulate what we grew up seeing.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

And a lot of times that happens too.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Yeah, it's like you want to break the cycle on, you know, an unhealthy relationship. Well, same thing could be said for unhealthy marriage. Um, you know, people don't have to stay in a marriage where they aren't happy and everything. With that being said, you know, you should do the work. It's like you said, you should try, you should do the work and everything like that. Um, and I think that's important because we like to say all the time, even when we think our kids aren't paying attention, our children are always watching and they're learning simply by just looking at us. And it's like how what you said. So if they see mom and dad doing conflict resolution, or if they see mom and dad giving their everything, and it's like I had a friend um who we always thought their parents were like pretty great, you know. Um, even when they would disagree, it was like the cutest disagreements ever. And then like sophomore year, they sat down and they told their kids they were getting a divorce, you know, and they told them, you know, we're gonna all go to family therapy and we're gonna deal with this and blah, blah, blah. And like they had a whole plan laid out, and um it it was hard for the kids. He moved on right down on the same street, okay. And they still had holidays and birthdays and things together, and it's like her mom always says, We're better as best. Friends than we are as husband and wife. But they recognize that and they set that example for their kids that you don't have to scream, argue, and fight, and you can still give it your all. And sometimes it's just not going to work out, you know? And and that's okay. And I think that that's like a really valuable lesson because sometimes there's just it's not there. And and I I get that because I'm very, very stubborn. And I got married, my first marriage, when I was very young, and I tried everything, every single thing I could to make that marriage work. And you know, at the end of the day, if the other person's not willing to put in the work, or if they're only putting in the work because you are and they don't mean it, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

So that's definitely true. I I'm I'm gonna challenge your thinking a little bit here, but um marriage isn't made for happiness. If you're expecting your partner to make you happy, you're selfishly asking them to do something that you're not willing to do for yourself. So it's definitely not made for happiness. Happiness is a byproduct of having a great marriage. It's it's create it was created for growth. So but but you hit the nail on the head right there, and that was my first marriage too. You know, when I'm going to therapy every Thursday for four years and I'm saying, hey, will you go with me? And he's saying no, and I'm asking to read books and I'm asking to listen to podcasts, and I'm, you know, all the things. Um, and he's saying no, what he's essentially saying is, I don't care enough about you or this marriage to actually make it work. Right. So that being said, yeah, your marriage isn't gonna work if that's the case. But if both of you are doing the work, and like you said, doing it genuinely and authentically for yourselves to become better people, not just to um do it because, you know, check it off a list or check, you know, tick the box, that that's part of the reason that your marriage is in the the predicament that it's in, is because everything is just check a box. So if that's the case, then yes, it's it's time to call it, you know? And and I absolutely believe in separation too. You know, I think a lot of people are like, well, we either have a good marriage or we get divorced. Separation is absolutely, absolutely a third option of saying, you know what, let's do a hard reset. And I think that before people get divorced, they should be required to do a hard reset. So again, sometimes it's gonna work, sometimes it isn't, but for the people that do the hard reset and realize, like, oh, I actually do miss my partner. I actually wasn't the best version of myself in that marriage. I actually do need to try a little bit harder. There would be a lot less divorce, but here's the other thing 70% of people that get divorced regret it. Not just regretting the like getting married and getting divorced, but they regret divorcing that person because they find out that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. And so for that, like, and that's kind of what happened with me and my my second, my second and now husband, is like he wanted to leave, he wasn't happy, and he realized, like, ah crap, like the the grass isn't greener on the other side, it's greener we're in water. And so, yeah, like it's that that is absolutely true. Now, have I've not I've never once regretted divorcing my first husband, ever. But that that means that I was in the 30%, not in the 70, you know, and that separation wouldn't have worked for us in that case because he didn't want to grow. But for those that that realize some things, you're saving a lot of the heartache just because you did separate and separate well and then had some realizations in that and matured and and and grew and you know, all that.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Absolutely, you know, and I love how you said I think you think it's important to separate. Um, I think that you're right. I think people should have to go through that because it's almost like it gives you time to to focus on yourself, like you said. Yeah, but it also gives you time to, you know, they say the heart wants what it can't have. So it you're gonna want that partner. You're used to sleeping next to them, you're used to having dinner with them. And, you know, so I think that that's a really good idea that, you know, you should be forced to separate um before you go for through a divorce. And it's almost like you can build that friendship again because you've been apart. So it's like, oh yeah, how's your day going? And you genuinely mean it. Like it's not just you just say it because, oh, you came through the door and it's oh, I'm expected to say it, you know. I think that's really cool. But moving on, let's talk about resentment because I think this is a big one for parents and just husbands and wives in general, because one person feels like they're carrying more of the mental load or household responsibilities, parenting or emotional labor. And how does that resentment build and how do couples address it before it becomes contempt and leads to separation or divorce?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Love this question. Um, and your listeners are probably not gonna like my answer on this, but this was kind of the punch in the throat that I had to endure as well.

unknown 28:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Um, I had a lot of resentment for my second husband, and my coach actually told me, Well, your resentment's on you. And I said, uh, excuse me. What? And she explained it well. And now this is how I explain it too, because she's absolutely she was absolutely right. Anytime you have an expectation of your partner, it's gonna be a premeditated resentment. Now, what people typically hear out of that is, oh, so I should just lower the standards and put the bar underneath the floor that it's already on. No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is when you hold your marriage in a firm grasp, it's going to slip through your fingers. When you hold it loosely in your hand, it sits in your hand and uh and it allows it to thrive. And what I mean by that is number one, are you actually speaking your expectations out loud? Are you clearly communicating your expectations that you have? So I'll give you a really good example. I told you in the beginning we have a 17 and a five-year-old. If I say, and and this works for your your spouses as well, if you say, Hey, I need you to take the trash out. In your mind, what you're not speaking out is you have about 0.23 seconds to get this trash out before I'm doing it myself, and then I'm pissing you for not getting it done. Okay. What you said was, can you take the trash out? Now, what your partner's hearing is, yeah, I can take the trash out, but it might be on my way out the door in the morning, might be this afternoon, might be next Thursday when I remember it. You see what I'm saying? Like there's a lot of gap there that can be filled with only negativity, shame, blame, guilt, resentment, bitterness, anger, all the things. Okay. Instead, if you say something like, hey, babe, I would love it if you could take the trash out tomorrow morning on your way out the door. It's got raw chicken in it, and I don't want the dogs getting in it, but also the trash people come tomorrow. Now your partner's hearing there's a time limit. There's a reason that it needs to be done now, you know, not next Thursday. And it's like, I've relaided all the information. Now you own that whole thing. I'm not thinking about it again as your as your wife. Like I've asked you, I've relayed the information, I'm out. Okay. So for that, like there's a massive difference between can you take the trash out? Can you take the trash out tomorrow morning because of these reasons, right? Massive difference. The resentment is ours because we had an expectation that we probably didn't communicate well. Or that you also have to take into their consideration, like, we're not their mothers. And as women, God, this was one of the things that I had to learn. But I also see this a lot is that we try to be our spouse's mom instead of their lover. So we're constantly trying to quote unquote train them or teach them or make them see, or we're judging them because they don't fold the towels like we fold them, or they don't load the dishwasher the way we load it. Or they don't what what fill in the blank with your own example, right? Like there's so many different examples there of things that they don't do, and then we judge them for that. But like, think about how self-righteous that is. Who the heck are we to say that we're right? Maybe we're the ones that don't do it well, or maybe they weren't ever taught to do that. Or, you know, either way, like, does it really matter at the end of the day if all of the dishes are getting clean? Who gives a crap how it's loaded? You see what I'm saying? So, like all of that, that then creates those resentments within us. And because we have that, resentment is just judgment. That's all it is. So if you think about this, resentment is like the first rung on the ladder, and then the second rung is the contempt. Contempt says, I'm better than you. Well, again, that's just pride and judgment. Right. So, like now they're in the wrong for not loading the dishwasher correctly, but you're in the wrong because you have so much pride and you're judgy. And then the third rung on that is that there's so much contempt that you start to think that they're disgusting and you don't want anything to do with them, and so you file for divorce. But if you want to sum it all up, it's hypocrisy. Yeah. You're just as wrong as what they are. It's just a different flavor.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Yeah. Yeah, that makes total sense. I can see that because I know I'm guilty of uh especially the trash thing. I'll be cleaning the kitchen and I'll say, Hey, can you take the trash out? And I I just say it in general because I got a 15-year-old boy and I got a husband. And if they're both standing there, I don't care who which one does it, but one of them needs to do it. And so when I say, Hey, can you take the trash out? And I'm washing dishes, and they're like, Oh, yeah. And then I'm like finishing cleaning the kitchen. Oh, my trash still isn't taking out. Yeah. And it's the can is like overflowing, and I'm like, oh great. And then I go to take the trash out, and they're like, Oh, I was gonna get it. Well when you've seen I was cleaning the kitchen, clearly the trash has to go out. And they were like, Oh, we were gonna finish this or that. And I'm like, but I asked you to take the trash out. But it's funny because it's what you just said. It's like I didn't say, Hey, before you guys do XYZ, can you take the trash out? Or hey, while I finish washing these dishes, can one of you run the trash out? You know, like I didn't give them that time frame.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Yeah, well, and even to take it a layer deeper, you know, they say that if there's ever an accident or something like that where somebody needs to call 911, you don't say, somebody call 911, because everybody assumes, ah, somebody else has got it, right? Yep. Like instead, you say, you take, you call 911 and you point to somebody. So in this case, it's the same thing. And and I have to do the same thing. Uh my husband's a pilot, so he's gone like a lot. And so for all of that, like a lot of times, you know, if I say, Hey, can you take the trash out? My my oldest, our oldest just knows that it's oh, okay, she's talking to me. But in that case, like for you, where you would need to say, husband, take the trash out, child, take the trash out. You know what I'm saying? Like, point it out so that that expectation, you know, both of them aren't getting in trouble for, you know, you've already set that expectation, you've communicated it well.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Right. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You know, it's because I'm especially I'm one of those people that I like, I love to have a to-do list, I love to be like, this is my time frame for things. And it's funny because my mom always says, you know, when I I'll call her because I'm frustrated or something, and she'll be like, Well, did you actually tell him or did you just assume he knew? Yeah. And I'm like, well, why wouldn't he know? He knows what I mean. And she's like, No, men don't know.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Well, and nobody's a mind reader. And you know what? Honestly, that's one of the biggest things people get in like their marriages start to struggle, and then they'll come to me and assumptions like it is it is absolutely true what they say about the word assumption. Like, when you assume, it does make an ass out of you and me because you're thinking one thing, they're thinking another, and nobody's a mind reader, and so it does, it causes a lot of problems.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, so moving on, and this one really interests me. Um, you've talked about mastering our triggers during difficult conversations. How can someone recognize they're being triggered and respond differently instead of immediately becoming defensive or shutting down or attacking their partner?

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Yeah, yeah. So when you are responding to a trigger, um you know you have the trigger because you start to feel the negative feeling rise up in your body. It could be um that your chest gets tense, or that you um, you know, you feel the need to just jump in and interrupt, or uh something like that. Now, here's the here's the kicker to this is that anytime you get defensive, you are protecting your ego. But your partner, again, going back to what we talked about in one of the first the first um questions that you asked, your partner's not your enemy. So you don't need to, they're not attacking you. You are attacking you by what you're making what they what they're saying mean. Okay, but that may not be what they mean. So you're saying, like in your brain, you're thinking, oh, she's saying I'm stupid. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is this isn't working, and I'm not blaming you for it not working. It's just as much my fault as the of for the budget not working as it is yours. What I'm saying is the system that we have isn't working. So, you know, X, Y, and Z. So this is the thing is that your triggers are self-beliefs, filters, things that come from your childhood that were stuffed in that suitcase we talked about earlier that you haven't worked through yet. But those self-beliefs and filters are from trauma, they're trauma-induced most of the time, and they are lies. You're not really stupid. If you were, you wouldn't be a functioning human, you wouldn't be a functioning adult, right? Right. You you're not um incapable, you're not unlovable, you're not like all of these filters that we have, if we really get down to the nitty-gritty on them, we can find the lie. We can figure out, okay, that's not actually true when we're in our right mind. But like small children, we start thinking with our amygdala, our our um, our feeling center of our brain, not our prefrontal cortex that actually makes logical decisions. And so, yeah, you have to work through those. Otherwise, they're gonna come up. And it's not just with your partner, it's gonna come up in your parenting, right? This is why um your kid's throwing a fit at Target and you get so upset of like, oh my God, people are gonna judge me and they're gonna think that I'm the worst parent ever. Well, why do you think that? Oh, well, because I grew up and my parents would always tell me that I'm the worst at blah, blah, blah, or I'm not good at blah, blah, blah, or whatever. Oh, okay, so you have to earn everyone's approval. Right. Who cares? They're not the one raising your kid. You know what I mean? So we're more worried about, and even that, like getting out of ego is is everything. When we get out of ego, then we can start being others focused. We can start focusing on what's really important, which is emotional regulation, teaching our kids emotional regulation, teaching our kids um how to have less of those filters and those self-beliefs that we than we have. Like we can start teaching them how to be level headed in every situation as well as teaching ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Right. And that makes perfect sense. And I've, you know, oh, I'm so sorry, my dog is laying on my feet. Um, I uh so I have like night terrors, and my husband, he also has like night terrors from when he was a sailor and everything like that. Um, so you know, it's sometimes he has to wake me up from one and I have to wake him up from one. Whatever. You know, at this point, we've been together almost a decade. We're kind of used to it, you know. And it's it's crazy because subconsciously, like that trauma works its way into our like our dreams. You know, we don't mean to do it, but we've kind of noticed like, you know, the next day we're like snappy with each other, you know, and I always tell I always tell them, like, hey, I know you slept like crap last night, so I'm gonna give you grace today. Yeah. You know, and he'll do the same thing for me. He'll say, hey, I know, I know last night was rough for you, so so I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a little chill today. And and I think that that's important, and I think that also goes into something that you say is teaching the importance of friendship and marriage. Yeah, my husband is my best friend, he can give me grace, he can, you know, we can laugh together, we can play together. And when you're exhausted from work, kids, bills, activities, and just everyday life, what do you think are realistic ways couples can rebuild that friendship without feeling like they've added another obligation to their schedule?

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question. It doesn't take a lot of time, is the thing. It's friendship is consideration. It's how do you speak to each other? How do you think about each other? How do you, you know, are you giving the benefit of the doubt or are you thinking negatively about them? What you what you think about and what you focus on, I mean, as as cliche as it sounds, it's true. If you focus on the negative, guess what you're gonna get more of? The negative. But if you focus on the positive of what they're doing, you're gonna get a lot more positivity. A lot more positivity. So, like those kinds of things, you know, and and and here's the other thing I would I would challenge you and your husband on is on the days that like, okay, I know that they slept like crap, right? Okay, you're gonna be, you're gonna give them more grace on those days. Why not give them that grace every day? Why not why not think about them and consider them every day? Because what if it's not sleep? What if it's that they're hungry? What if it's that, you know, something happened at work that was out of their control or they, you know, didn't expect, or I don't know, whatever. And that kind of threw a monkey wrench in the system or in their day or what have you. So it's it's treating them like you would treat your best friend. It's when your best friend comes to you and says, Hey man, I just really need to talk, you don't say, Um, yeah, I know, but you haven't done the dishes yet. So do that and we'll do it later. We'll talk later. Or like suck it up, buttercup. We still got things to do. Like if your friend calls and says, Hey, I need to talk, like I've had a really, really rough day, or you know, I just I need this, that, or the third. You're gonna stop everything you're doing and you're gonna give them your time, you're gonna be present with them, and your spouse deserves the exact same respect.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And you know, it's one of those things where I think a lot of the times people look at marriages as like 50-50. Um and that's not it at all. Like you know, so I think it's coming to that realization that it's not gonna be a 50-50. And it's like you said, you know, why don't I extend that grace on other days? Or, you know, and that's one of those things that, yeah, that I could probably I could definitely work on that, you know? And it probably would make our friendship better because it's like you said, like if my best friend calls, I'm like, girl, let me pour us some coffee. Like, I need to know, you know. My husband, I'm like, uh, can you sit at the island why I cook dinner? And yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Sounds good. Um, yeah, you know, like I could I don't, I don't know what he's talking about. And I'm just pretending through it. But at the same time, I don't take any interest in it. I don't make it interesting to myself, you know? Um, and that's something that I've realized, like that I need to work on because that's not what I would do for a friend. I would even if I didn't understand what they were doing, I'd be like, wait, can you explain that to me? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

You're gonna ask questions.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Right, exactly. Like, I'm gonna wanna know. And I think it's important, like for our relationship, we do quarterly, and sometimes if we need to do it more frequently, we will, but we call them check-ins. Love that. So, so you know, it's anything that's going on with the kids, the relationship, anything. Like, I'll tell, I'll ask him, Hey, what do you need from me? You know, what what do I need to be doing better? You know, um, what do you think I'm doing great right now that you really like? And he does the same thing, you know, and we kind of just try to figure out a plan to work that in together. And sometimes we have to do it earlier. Like if we start feeling like resentment towards each other, it it we don't wait until the quarterly check-in, we move it up. Um, and I think it's important to constantly reevaluate where you are because that's what you kind of do in a friendship. Yeah. In a friendship, you're constantly talking about like, hey, did you like this? Or hey, blah, blah, blah. You know, you're constantly reinforcing to each other the things you like. You know, about the other person, like, oh, you look really, really cool in that, you know, whatever it may be. And when you're married, you kind of stop doing that. Um, but and so I I mean, I think it's important to, like you said, maintain that friendship and take steps to rebuild that friendship if you've if it's starting to, you know, wane a little bit. But let's tackle something difficult. Do you think every marriage can be repaired? And if so, or if not, how do you distinguish between a relationship going through a difficult season and it just requires work, or one that's staying together may not be healthy or safe?

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Yeah, um, I do think that every marriage can be repaired if, again, going back to the idea that both people want it to be repaired, if both people are still willing to put in the work, if both people are willing to look at themselves and put away the judgment and the um the hypocrisy and actually look at what their part is in that and it and own it, I absolutely think that it can work. Um again, you know, separation may be required for any kind of abuse, any kind of abuse at all. Um it needs to be separated. And what's interesting about this is um I've talked to a couple of clients lately where they've said, and and God, this is such a buzzword, it drives me insane, but there's everybody thinks that everyone else is a narcissist lately. And that's not the case. A lot of times, what will happen is that your partner, everybody has narcissistic tendencies, everybody. And so what will happen is those are coming out because of like an anxious, preoccupied attachment system or something like that. And a lot of times, what will happen is that your partner will bring that to your attention and you will say, Well, you're the one that needs help. I don't need help. There's nothing wrong with me. Whoo, baby. That right there, that right there just basically proved that you do need help and that there is wrong with you. And what's wrong with you is number one, all the pride that you have. But number two, that right there says that you do need help in overcoming your pride, your judgment, um, your probably your your insecure attachment, all of that. And so that right there, I do think that if they're willing to get help, great. If they're not willing to get help, then um, you know, give it six months. And if at that point it's still not like they're still like, nope, this is this isn't gonna work, that's where you may need to ask for a separation or what have you. Seasons come and go. Seasons don't last very long. You know, they might last six. This is why I said six months, because seasons will usually last six months or less. Right. Whereas, you know, the where people get stuck is marriages usually have a half-life. So if your marriage, let's say you've been together 22 years and you look up and you're like, man, our marriage just really isn't what it used to be. It's we've kind of, you know, let it go, blah, blah, blah. Great. Your marriage has probably sucked for the last 11. So you've been where you are for 11 years, because that's the half-life of the 22 that you've been together. So don't let it get to that point. Like, this is why those quarterly check-ins that you were talking about that you and your husband have are so incredibly vital. And I actually, in my school community, um, S K-O-O-L, I have workshops, I have printables, things like that, where I actually encourage couples to sit down every Sunday and go through all of those six questions or those six conversations that we were talking about at the beginning. Oh, they can go through all six of those and and they say, like, you know, you're planning out meal plans, you're planning out um, you know, all the sports events and things that are going on this week. Um, you know, if you have to, if you've got such a busy life that you have to plan out your sexy time, do that. Like, but then at the bottom of it, once you've got your week planned, at the bottom of it, there's actually questions that are like things like, um, you know, what did we do well this week? What did we got so great this week? And that really kind of gets you into that, like, oh, for the last three weeks, we haven't done so great at spending time together at night. So instead, we're replacing that with Netflix. Maybe we need to do a better job of that. And and you're you're three weeks in versus three months in, where it's like, oh, I actually didn't realize that was as big of a problem as it is. Yeah. So yeah. So I would I I would really encourage couples to do that as well.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Yeah, absolutely. That makes total sense. Because it's like, like we said earlier, I mean, some the last two questions especially are are so difficult. And if the more you do them, the better you're gonna get at it. Like I know when we first started doing our check-ins, we were dating, um, but it was before we moved in together. And no one likes to hear what they're doing wrong. You know. Um, but at the same time, I knew if I wanted him to improve the things that were irritating me about him, I had to sit there and take it and listen to what I was doing that was irritating him. You know, so it's a two-way street. You know, exactly. It's a two-way street. And I didn't want to be selfish and just think about my own needs. I had to think about his needs. And as we've gone through, um, you know, we've tailored it and everything like that, of course. But it's just so important. And if you do it every Sunday, like you said, you're planning out your week for the kids, for the dinners, you're getting all that done still that you were gonna do anyway. You didn't know you were gonna plan that out. Yeah, right. It sends you hours of time. Yeah, absolutely. And then then you get to actually have some connection with your spouse too, and that's awesome. You know? And so I only have a couple more questions for you. And one of the last ones is you've said couples need to stop asking, is this marriage worth it? And start asking, am I qualified to build the marriage I want? Why is that mental shift so important?

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Because when you start asking, is the marriage worth it? You're giving yourself an out. You're you're basically saying, like, eh, is this worth it? Is this person worth it? Your marriage is always worth it, or you wouldn't have gotten married. Okay. Right. What it is, is again from that ego-driven place of, okay, it's not about the marriage. It's am I qualified? Meaning, do I have where's where's my gap? Where's my gap of of education here of where I do I know how to make this marriage better? If not, I'm gonna need some help with that. I'm gonna need to, I'm gonna need to get, you know, get some outside perspective and and stuff like that. Where it it's never about the marriage. You are 50% of that marriage. So is it is it worth it? Are you worth it? Are you worth having a better marriage? Are you worth having, like I said, that byproduct of happiness? Are you worth keeping your family together and not wrecking your children's childhood and the rest of their their adult lives? Because it's going to. It's gonna take they're they're gonna take that with them.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

Um, so are you worth it? Absolutely. So if if if the marriage is struggling, it's not about it's not it's never about the marriage. It's about where the the gap is and and whether you have what you need to fill that gap or not. And if not, get help.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Yeah. I love that. And so if there is a couple listening right now and they love each other, but feel completely disconnected, they have that gap, maybe they haven't felt like best friends in years. Um, what are the first few things that you would recommend they start doing to reconnect?

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Yeah. Um, so first thing is definitely get help. There is no shame in it. There is like, I know that a lot of people feel shame of like, oh my God, why do I, you know, getting help for my marriage, I should, I should know this. And my counter my counter response to that is why should you know? How should you know how to do a marriage if you didn't see a good example of that growing up? You shouldn't. Right. So it's just like saying, Um, you know, God, you know, I I'm just such a moron because I I don't know how to speak French. Like, like, you know what I mean? It's exact it's the exact same thing. It is the exact same thing. So for me, no, there's no, there is, there is as much shame in you not knowing how to do your marriage as there is in you not knowing how to speak a certain language. So there's that. Um, and getting help, like you're gonna need it, you're gonna need a tutor on that in order to to learn how to say the words properly and actually have the correct pronunciation. So, um, so there's that. So I would get help there. Second, I would start reevaluating what your goals and or sorry, what your values and your morals are in your life. Are you and your partner on the same page for your for morals, for things that you want moving forward, for the way that you want your marriage to look, to feel, to sound, to um, you know, to be for an example for your kids, your grandkids, the community, et cetera. So if not, start identifying the gaps. You know, what what did so my my best and most favorite exercise to give couples is start looking at the half-life of your marriage, right? Okay, you've been together 20 years. So your marriage started struggling about 10 years ago, most likely. What happened 10 years ago? Did you have a kid? Did you move? Did you um, you know, did you have a parent die? Something like that. Like what happened 10 years ago and when did what did you stop doing around that time that you were doing before? Is it date nights? Was it um, you know, consideration? Was it respect? Was it having regular sex? Was it um that you started putting your kids above your marriage and above your spouse? Figure out what it was and start doing that thing, start intentionally doing that one thing again.

SPEAKER_01 58:11

That makes perfect sense. Um and my last question for you you describe a great marriage, and I love this, as the most fun sleepover with your best friend every night. So let's end here. What do couples who genuinely enjoy being married to each other do consistently differently than others? They're intentional.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

They're intentional with it, with how they spend their time, with the way that they show up for each other, with what that means, what it looks like. Um, like they don't just, they're not on autopilot. They don't just let the day go by. Like they actually control the day and they control their life. They don't let their life control them, they don't let the day control them. So, you know, well, we'll just float through. No, I am going to, at this time, we are going to eat dinner together as a family. At this time, I'm gonna help you clean up the kitchen. At this time, instead of sitting down, you know, before we watch Netflix or our show or whatever, we are going to spend 20 minutes of uninterrupted time. Your kids know, nope, this is mom and dad's time. You don't interrupt me unless somebody's bleeding, barfing, or dying. Like, yep. Those are your options. You know what I mean? So know that you are intentional about what you're doing and how you're doing it and how you're showing up.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Perfect. I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. We really appreciate it. We'll have to have you back. I mean, this is just a topic that can go on and on because there's so many things that you can dive deeper in, especially when we're talking about emotional connections and things like that. Yeah, you know, relationships struggle with. But I really appreciate you coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been a joy. Thank you. Well, that's it for today, you beautiful caffeinated disasters. If any of this resonated with you, hit that follow button. And if you would, please leave us a review. It really helps other tired moms and dads find the show. And if you want to become a supporter of the show, or just keep us caffeinated so we can keep bringing the chaos every Tuesday, head over to our Buzz About Bus Route page at mom's brain is a coffee stain.com. Even a couple bucks means the world and helps us keep the coffee and the show flowing. Now, you can become a subscriber of the show and get access to new episodes two days early. Don't forget, check us out on social media. You can find us everywhere at mom's brain is a coffee stain. Slide into our DMs or email us your best no guilt hacks, cringiest mom or dad moments, and episode requests at mom's brain is a coffee stain at outlook.com. Guys, don't forget, head over and check out Cameron's website at recognizingpotential.com. And you can buy her book, Buy Connected to MeTlueprint, available on Amazon now. Cameron's podcast, Married and Connected, is available everywhere you enjoy listening to your favorite podcast. You can also visit Cameron's YouTube, Instagram, Substack, or school community. We'll put all the links below in the show notes. Well, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to water the garden. Love y'all, mean it, go sip one for us, and we'll see you next Tuesday.