SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome to Mom's Brain is a Coffee Stain, the only podcast clinically proven to raise your blood pressure and your dopamine. I'm Kayla, millennial mom, and current chaos coordinator of two spoil giants who think budget is a TikTok sound. In today's episode, I had the opportunity to talk with Michelle Conson. She's a mother of four, a speaker, and a writer with a mission to help mothers in difficult parenting seasons. Well, let's jump on in. Thank you for joining us today, Miss Michelle Conson. Why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be with you today. I uh let's see, was born and raised in South Africa. Um my mom was German, my dad was Portuguese, and so I think I learned from an early age what it um it felt like to not really belong somewhere, uh, being in a country that um, you know, was sort of foreign to what I had at home. Um, but yeah, grew up and uh moved to the US uh 26 years ago with my husband. And uh we've had four kids. I was seven months pregnant when we first came over. Uh so we have um three girls and a boy. Although when I say girls and boy, they're like ladies and men now. Um but the oldest is 26 and the youngest is 16. And um, yeah, I was an attorney uh before I had kids and um took um a good long break in the middle there to raise my kids and stay home with them and am now on my own, started my own journey about 12 years ago of um needing to find out why I was stuck in places I was stuck. I just couldn't um couldn't survive in those places anymore. And so started my own journey of of healing and uh have just felt like there's just so much I want to share and I want to encourage other women that they're not stuck, that it's never too late, and that there is still hope. And so yeah, that's that's where I find myself now, uh speaking and hosting retreats and writing and encouraging other women.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

That's amazing. Absolutely amazing. And you raised in four four kids to adulthood, three girls too. Wow. Uh-huh. I know.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yes, I know. That that feels like I need a special, special reward there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

We always uh we always said my dad was a saint because he had his wife and then three daughters and he never had a son. And we're like, you're gonna be sainted. Like that is a lot of estrogen.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

That's right, that's right, yeah, and very little testosterone for him. At least my my husband had one son.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah. Right, yeah. So that's wonderful though. And you've been parenting for, you know, 26 years. I know. When did you realize that your own childhood was actually showing on in the way you were parenting your children?

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Yeah. So, you know, I think we always have like a little bit of a sense, right? Like of the things, the narratives that we tell ourselves. Like, well, I I was sort of raised as an only child. I have a half-brother, but he's 14 years older than me. And so, you know, I kind of always knew that um being raised as an only child would impact my parenting. You know, so those kind of things I always knew, like the the things that you hear about in theory, like, oh, you know, you'll probably be a bit selfish, or you know, the noise will be a lot, and sibling relationships or rivalries will be hard for you to manage. So those kind of things I always knew, but those were not really the things that I think ultimately caused me to struggle the most. And I would say it was at that, you know, about 12 years ago, um, maybe a little like a year or two later now that I started realizing it before I started reaching out for some help. But I think it was when my oldest daughter was a teenager and my youngest daughter was a toddler. I think being 10 years apart, they sort of ran parallel tracks for a while, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

12 and 2, 13 and 3, you know, we know like a a a lot happens in both those stages. A lot of independence is asserted, and you know, there's a lot of um, you know, wanting, you know, wanting to do things your way and not being willing to look at anyone else's way, being a lot of emotions and tantrums. And and so I think at that point for me, I realized that I was not able to control anything anymore. And you know, I think it's an illusion that we can ever really control anything or anyone else other than ourselves. But, you know, when you have a newborn, you you do have some sense of control, you know. You you're the one calling most of the shots you can't control whether they're gonna cry all night or whether you're gonna have colic or you know, those kinds of things. But but within those parameters, you you know, you have a lot more control. And uh so I think, you know, having those two parallel stages of my kids, and then, you know, having two in the middle, having a marriage that had, you know, become hard with, I guess, the pressures of the kids and just, you know, me realizing, you know, all the things that I was battling with. I'd probably say at that point, I, you know, through the help of some counselors and wise friends and some mentors, excuse me, just started realizing that I, you know, this this control that I was trying to have was not really normal and natural and uh that something needed to change. Um, but that's probably the point where I was like, okay, wait a minute, we're probably looking at more than just I'm an overwhelmed mom with four kids.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Yeah. And it's hard because it's like you said, when they're young, you have, you know, you control who they see, you control who where they go, you control, you know, what they eat, you control everything, you know. And then they hit those teenage years and and you kind of have to loosen up on that control a little bit. But then they I'm experiencing now with our daughter, she's in college. She this she just started in August and she's living away in the dorm. And it's it it could drive you insane because if you call her at 10 o'clock at night, is she gonna answer the phone? You don't know. And what if she doesn't answer the phone? I can't make her.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

But I don't I don't know if she's okay in the dorm. I don't know if she's she made it home from work, like, you know, and and you lose control of that. And I think that's something that a lot of moms actually go through is not the fear of losing control. It's actually dealing with the reality of how do we step back and still be loving and kind and but still be like, okay, this is a safety thing, or you know, hey, if you could please respect mom or or dad and do this for me, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

And and I just think that's one of the like my parents, even to this day, if we go to family dinner at my mom's house, my mom and dad on your way out the door when you're getting hugs, they'll say, please text us when you get home.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

And we've got a family chat, and everybody puts in the family chat when everybody get finally gets home. But I get it, because if not, you stay up all night worrying, like didn't what's going on with my kids? So I totally understand that aspect of it. And what what parts of your childhood do you think you intentionally carried into your parenting because they were good things? And what parts do do you work to really leave behind and walk away from?

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's obviously a lot, and I'm still uncovering and unpacking a lot of them and probably will do that until the day that I die. Um, but ironically, I think uh the the part that I thought was good and one of the parts that I've had to let go of the most um has been the same. And I think it has been this idea of control, you know, and not necessarily even needing to know where they are all the time, um, you know, although that's part of it, but you know, sort of emotions and um wanting, you know, to to make sure everyone was okay all the time. Um and, you know, and also realizing that if they were not okay, um, it's probably still okay. I didn't feel okay. Um, so we were not allowed to, you know, growing up, you couldn't be angry or um or really sad. Um I had a narcissistic dad who I loved. Um he passed away four years ago. Um I'm sorry. But, you know, he um he didn't make it safe to have any real emotions in the house other than just being okay and happy for him. Um and you know, I recognize now that's probably because he couldn't handle them. But, you know, so I had to I had to learn, and that was sort of part of the control, right? Like if I could keep my kids happy and okay, then I was gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

But I needed I needed to realize that, you know, our emotions are a gift. And that doesn't mean we get to do whatever we want when we feel them, but like we feel them for a reason, right? Our bodies are great communicators, our bodies are telling us something that we should listen to. Um, and I think I was trying to sort of dumb those down in my kids, you know, especially those negative emotions that I felt threatened by because they were threatening my well-being. Um I felt like I had to make it like okay for them, not realizing that I was also making it okay for me through doing that. Um, and so I needed to learn that um I I needed to, you know, let them be, let them have their emotions, and I could still be okay that way. And and the only way that I learned that was through going through the the hard parts of my own story, right? Through going through those parts of my story where I was angry and I did have a lot of grief that I needed to work through. Um, and I needed other people around me to help hold those with me and to show them to me. Because again, since I hadn't been able to feel them, I had learned to stuff them and numb them for decades. And so it wasn't really easy for me to feel them. You know, it's not like you're like, okay, now you have permission. Come on out, come out of hiding. Um, it took, it took a long time and it's still happening, right? Like, I think again, it'll be a process I'm involved in until my time on this earth is done. I, you know, I'm constantly trying to remind myself, like, okay, what am I actually feeling right now? Like, can I can I lean into that? Can I accept that? Can I, can I be okay with how I'm feeling right now? Can others around me, not can they hold it, but like, is it appropriate for me to let them hold it as well? So yeah, I, you know, I think that was that was a big one for me. And that's that's meant that I've needed to go back to my grown kids, especially, um, and to say to them, I am so sorry I never let you be angry. I'm so sorry I never let you be sad. Um, and you know, not as an excuse, but just as a way to try and help them understand. Like I was never allowed to have those emotions. And so when you had them, like that was very de dysregulating for me. And I couldn't, I couldn't be okay if you were feeling those things, and that was wrong.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

And so, you know, I think um the control is one of the ones that, you know, look good on the outside in the beginning, you know, because I had all the schedules down, pad, I everything seemed to pretty much work well from the outside, you know. Um, and you know, I think that was because I had worked really well at keeping everything together and managing everything well. So yeah, I'd say that's probably one of the ones that I that kind of looked good, that served me well in some ways, but that I've had to also learn to let go of.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah, absolutely. So you talk about wanting to get things right. And I think all parents kind of go through that where the we're like, we just want to do this right, or like be picture perfect, or you know, something like that. And as a parent, what did that pressure look like for you raising four kids when your kids were little? And you do have that major, you know, well, I mean, maybe not major, but you do have a nice age gap between your youngest and your oldest. So what did that look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Um, so you know, I think that looked like, again, me doing the best that I could to make sure everyone and everything was okay. Um and so, you know, we always like, you know, that meant like having the right clothes at the right time and, you know, getting the next season's clothes ahead of time and making sure that everyone was prepared for everything they needed, and making sure that, you know, they all had music lessons and were in sports and that all the schedules worked and that everybody looked neat and tidy on the outside. Um, you know, I think it I think it revolved a lot more around the way things looked than the way things were. Yeah. Um, you know, and I, you know, I have to go back to my son, um, you know, when he was probably late teenager, maybe even early 20s. He's 24 now. Um, you know, and he he loves the outdoors and always has. He, you know, is a bit of a wild child in that way. I think he would have been happy to just grow up in the outdoors. Um, spent most of his like, you know, childhood years in the creek behind our house. And um he now lives in Anchorage and you know, is outdoors any chance he gets, even in the winter, you know, he's snowboarding and hiking and you know, backcountry skiing and all the things. And um, and that that's who he is, you know, that's how God made him. That is who he is. And along with that comes, you know, at some point there was a mullet, and then there's long hair and you know, beards, and um, you know, when he was old enough, tattoos and um, you know, and all the outdoorsy clothing, you know, that's kind of more, you know, rugged. And and I, you know, I think I was always trying to, as a kid, and as he was growing up, make him be neat and tidy. Um, I, you know, always had neat haircuts, and and I'm not saying that any of that's inappropriate, especially when kids are little. Like, of course you're gonna get your kids' haircut, right, so they can see and so that they look presentable. Like, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but I think for me, I had to recognize that I was doing that um to to try and make him who I needed him to be, right? Neat and tidy and um wearing the right clothes and looking good according to what everyone else around us was, you know, wearing and how they were like presenting themselves. And I had to go back to him and I had to say, I'm so sorry. I was trying to make you into someone that you weren't. Um, you're one of the most fiercely authentic and honest and loyal people that I know. And that includes being honest and authentic to who you are. And, you know, and me trying to make you something else that was not kind. And I was doing that so that I could be okay and so that I could feel good when that, you know, didn't serve you well at all, and I failed you as a mom in that area. Um, you know, so I'd say that's one of the ways that I think, you know, trying to look a certain way. And, you know, looking back at my childhood, that was big in our family. We we've always looked like we had everything together, right? Everyone was always well dressed, and you know, everything always looked good. Our house was always like, you know, well kept, and you know, we ate great meals and like everything looked good. Um, but we didn't ever really talk about, you know, what was happening under the surface, that everything was really, really dysfunctional, that we were trying to keep a piece that wasn't there just to make it look like everything was peaceful.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. It's like you're just holding it all together so the shiny glass appears, but underneath of it, there's a bunch of tiny little cracks that nobody wants to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Totally. You find some really big cracks too, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Absolutely. You know, and it can feel like, especially when you start parenting, like when you start making those own tiny cracks with your kids. I know I've had a hard time, especially going into teenage years with our kids. Um, when those cracks start appearing, it's you get so busy. It's like you said, you're busy with sports and schoolwork and everything like that. And you may not realize like in that moment, oh my goodness, like that was not good for you. Like I shut down your emotions and I was like, Well, we gotta do this, you get over it, you know. And then you come back to it and you have to sit there and you think, and I'll be at dinner and I'll be like, you know what? I am so sorry. It just hit me. I was so rude to you, you know, like and and have to try to do that repair because you didn't, it's not that you intentionally were trying to say, hey, I'm not emotionally available right now. You were just trying to keep everything together. Oh, we have to show up on time. We're not a late family because you know the world will end if we're two minutes late to soccer practice, you know.

unknown 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

So, but I I totally understand that. And it's it's one of those things where you really as a parent have to come to the idea that parenting is just not perfect. As long as you're there for your kids and you're loving your kids, you're really doing the best you can do.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, you spoke about like sitting at the dinner table and realizing like there are definitely those moments. Um, but I think for me, I needed to do so much work so that I could actually like see the bigger picture. Um, and I could, you know, like I could actually start understanding like, oh, wait a minute, there are ways that I've hurt you that I wasn't even that wouldn't even have occurred to me at dinner, right? Like I I couldn't even have seen that until I, you know, had been able to unpack some of my own stuff, my own grief, my own story. And then I sort of, because I was then, you know, able to see those things in myself, I was able to then see them in the ways I was reacting and responding to others as well. Um, and then they became more frequent, right? I could see them easier. And um, but you know, that took a lot of time. And and, you know, we have to be kind and gentle with ourselves because, you know, I've I've also learned the hard way and I still obviously battle with this. I I think we, as moms, um, a lot of us can empathize, but you know, there's the why can't I just get it right? I'm such a horrible my kids. You know, the shame and the blame that come, um, because we we will never do it perfectly, right? No matter how hard we try, just because we're we're broken people, and we will never do it perfectly. And, you know, I think those voices can be really loud, but I don't think those voices are helpful because I think they just get us more stuck. Um, you know, by thinking that we're so horrible and you know, we'll never, never get it right, and we've ruined our kids forever. And you know, that's not really that's not gonna move us anywhere good, right? Um that's just gonna move us to like trying to appease, like, oh, I'm so sorry, like just forgive me. Is everything okay again? Right. That's just trying to keep the peace again. Um when you're not really dealing with the okay, wait a minute, why did I do that? Um, you know, is is there is there another reason? Can I be curious? Like, does this come from somewhere else? Does this feel familiar? Right. When I felt out of control when you were yelling, did that remind me of something? And if I look back and it reminded me of my childhood, like what part of my childhood and what was going on when I felt this. And let's look at that a little more, you know. And so again, that journey, you know, takes a long time, but um, but it's so worth it because I think we get to then be you know, show up real and authentic and and own what's ours to own. And on the other hand, we don't have to own what's not ours, right? We don't have to say sorry for everything because we're not responsible for everything. Um but you know, we can honestly then own what we need to own.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I parent um from a a place of trauma as well. And I've been in therapy luckily since I was like 10 or 11 years old. Um and there's it there was times parenting, especially when my son was real little, because I never wanted to be a mom, um, that we I had postpartum really bad and like our bond and our connection was just way off. And you know, I was I was like, man, I am gonna hurt this baby, you know, and I was tired because I went back to work like six days after having my son. Like I was just like, I'm done, you know. And I told my mom, I said, I can't. You know, take him. I can't. And she's like, What do you mean you can't? I'm like, I I I can't, you know? And so she's like, Okay, well, we need to call the doctor, you know. So went in and yeah, he's he was explaining to me like, you know, you postpartum and mix with my other things going on. He was like, you know, you can have this really bad reaction and sometimes it's okay to have space and things like that. And then once I was like coming out of it and I was seeing why, like, because I was like blaming, I was blaming my son because it's like I didn't want to be a mother. So him being born forced that on me. It's gonna make me into the person I didn't want to be. Yeah. And it had nothing to do with him. He's a tiny little baby that's like hours old. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah. But it was familiar, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:41

It reminded you of exactly like trauma.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

The parenting from a place of trauma. And it it took me a couple weeks really to get to the point where I thought okay enough to just be like, oh, I'll give him a bath or I'd I'd just be alone with him, period, with nobody else around. And you know, as a mom, I don't ever want like no one wants to ever say that. But the reality of it is, is even going through that, I knew the most important thing was he'd be safe. So yeah, if I have to be supervised with him, I'll be supervised with him. Because I I was having an issue and I couldn't see where that issue was. And I think sometimes it's great if we can have an a third party that can see when we start parenting from trauma, like when we have that shift or that trigger moment, you know?

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

And they can like not ease the waters and like ignore everything, but just aid the situation and and help you kind of repair it. And it's just one of those things when you parent from trauma, you never know when that thing's when it's gonna pop up. You'll you'll think something's buried and you dealt with it 10 years ago. And the next thing you know, like your kid does something in a certain way in a grocery store, and you're like, just flashback and you're like, what did you do? You know. Yeah. And it's it's not perfect. It's like you said, like, we have to give each other grace and we have to give ourselves grace because at the the reality of it is, is we do go to bed and we say we're ruining our kids. We lay there at night and we're like, oh my gosh, my horrible mother.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

And I I really think at the end of the day, if as long as you raise non-sucky human beings who are productive members of society, you you did the best that you could do as long as you showed up for your kids and you loved them. You know. But in the moment, it's really hard to remember that.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I want to just commend you, Kayla, on like reaching out to your mom. I think, you know, I think we're often so ashamed or embarrassed and um, you know, that we don't reach out for help. We don't reach out to other people, we think we're alone, we think we're the only one. Um, but the fact that you reached out was huge. And, you know, it it's one of the things that I've really learned in my healing journey. We we cannot heal alone. And there is so much research out there now. And Kurt Thompson says um he's you know, great, uh, he's a psychiatrist and he's just a great voice in the story work space. And he says that um our brains literally rewire when we tell our stories in the presence of empathetic listeners. And, you know, so there's literally something physiological that changes and happens in our bodies when we are with other people. It's not just that we're with them and we feel good and then they leave, right? Like we literally change and we heal and we become different and better when we're able to share with empathetic listeners. And so often we stay isolated, right, because of the shame and we're embarrassed. Um, or we, you know, just like nobody's gonna believe me or no one's gonna want to hear this, or um, but it is vital.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Become crazy.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, yeah. And one of the big, you know, one of the big elements of trauma is that when it happens, you have to you go through it alone for the most part. That's what makes it so traumatic. And um, and so if we're, you know, if one of the defining marks of trauma is that we were alone in order to heal, we need other people. We need community, we need safe people around us. And so it is really important um that we have, you know, people around us and even just one person to mirror back to us. There is nothing wrong with you. You are not a horrible mother. Um you're struggling with something, and let's be curious about that, let's look at that, and obviously let's, you know, do whatever needs to be done to keep kids safe and to keep you safe in the moment because you know, there are a wide variety of things that could be going on, and those are important. But you know, having somebody else to reflect that to and for them to reflect back to you what they've heard and for them to help you start processing that is vital in motherhood. I mean, in any in for everybody, any human being, but you know, since we're talking mostly about our motherhood journeys right now, um, but yeah, I just want to commend you for doing that. I think um I think a lot of moms and a lot of us just just don't take that step. And you know, it took me a long time to reach out and um pull other people in uh because I was yeah and you know, because I'd learned to survive by myself, right? And um, and so I'd learned to control and hold everything on my own. That was how I survived. But I just support where I couldn't do it anymore. Um and so I just want to say it's vital. And if you know you're struggling in any way right now, it's okay. And there is nothing uniquely wrong with you. Um you need to find your people. You need to find people that can come around you and support you and help you heal.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Yeah, because you're not crazy. No, you're not there's nothing wrong with getting help. There's no it's no stigma to it. It's good to get help, it's good to talk about these things. Yeah. So, no, I totally I I understand completely what you're saying. And honestly, I th I think about that day very often, like when I talk with my mom, and I wonder if in that moment, if I what if I didn't make that decision to go to my mom's and say, hey, I can't do this? Would I have been on the news? Yeah, would my son be here? What would I have done? Would I have just continued to have postpartum until somebody said, Hey, like what what would happen? You know, and and I don't like playing the what if game. It's actually one of the things me and my therapists are working on. But but it it it does, it runs through my mind because there's so many situations and so many times in my life where it's like I did need that olive branch and I needed to take an olive branch, and instead of reaching out and grabbing one that was being extended, I walked right past it. Yeah. You know, because I'm like, that's not really intended for me. Or I don't want them to think of me like this, or that's a weakness, or something like that. Yeah, whatever it may be. And it and it's just not that way. And parenting is hard. And when you're parenting from trauma, and I don't care if you have the best childhood ever, the best parents ever in the whole world, you have probably had something traumatic happen to you at some point. Totally, you know, and if if you haven't ever talked about it and you think, oh, I can just move on from it and bury it, it builds. And it like as my therapist says, like it feeds into your soul. Like it just is like a root where it keeps digging deeper and deeper and deeper. And you don't want that. You want it to stay at the surface where you can just pluck it out and it never grows back again. You know. But the reality of it is, is as human beings, we look at stigs stigmas and you know, stereotypes and things like that, and we say, That I'm not doing that. You know, and you just you can't do that. And when you're a parent, and this is the thing that I always say, your kids have to be happy, healthy, and just sane. Like happy, healthy, and sane. You know, like use common sense. We don't want our kids out there doing weird stuff. But if your kids aren't happy or healthy, they can't be sane. And they can't be healthy or happy if they're not safe. And you're their parent. That's your job. Your job is to create safety, not risk it. And I think as a mother, even in my darkest days, I latch on to that part right there. Is at even in my darkest moment, it m it is my job to protect my children, always and forever. You know, and I think sometimes it can help you be like it can help you get to that point where you do reach out for help because then it's not about you, it's about protecting your children.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Yeah, yeah. And I I mean I I think you've said so much good stuff, but also, you know, I yeah, just want to say that sometimes we do get to a point where we can't do it on our own. And that's okay. You know, it's okay for us to acknowledge that and and it's okay for us to to have help. Again, we weren't created to do the hard things in life alone. We never were. Um and I think, you know, also we long for our kids to be happy. Um, but you know, sometimes that's not the reality, and we again we can't force that or control that or make it happen. And um, you know, and I think at least I've learned that it's more important for us to be honest um and authentic. And, you know, we are gonna have bad days. Um we live in a crazy world right now, like bad things are going on all the time, right? Um, and you know, bad things are gonna happen, they just are. Um, you know, we we can't live in a bubble or a cocoon. Um, but we can't live in fear of them either. And so, and it's okay if we're, you know, we're feeling things other than being okay. Um, and that's been a big part of my story, right? I've had to learn. Like it's it's it's okay. And, you know, there may be a long road ahead and there may be work to do, and there may be things that need to happen, but um, but it it's okay. Um, you know, and I yeah, I just I just don't want to gloss over like that mom who you know who is really struggling, or you know, especially in a postpartum season, and I really want to encourage anyone to to get the help that you need to get, like reach out to anyone, to someone that you, you know, feel safe with, um, or a professional if you don't have anyone like that. Like it's really important and you don't have to do it all. It's not all dependent on you, and you don't have to do it perfectly, and you're gonna make mistakes. Um and you know, you you don't have to make sure that everyone else is okay. Uh, because you you know you can never take anyone further than you've taken yourself. And if you're not okay, there is no way you get to make sure that everyone else around you is okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Um, well, let's switch it up a little bit and take it to a little bit lighter note. Our podcast is all about the messy and perfect and sometimes ridiculous reality of parenthood. So, what is something you were absolutely convinced of was like a huge deal when your kids were like little that you can laugh at now? Like what's a s scenario or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah, so there, I'd say there's there's probably two, you know, things that just popped to my mind straight away that maybe not that crazy, but um, or not that hilarious. But the one is just like spilled milk was my thing. If my kids spilled milk, then I was it was like the end of the world because inevitably it was at dinner when everyone had just taken a bath and we were just getting ready to do bedtime, and I was finally gonna, you know, have some peace for the day. And then there was spilled milk, and then you know, we needed to go bath again and new jummies, and oh, and then there was like food wasted and a mess to clean up, and oh my goodness, it just put me over the edge almost every single time. Um I guess and that was you know one of the one of one of the little red flags that was like this the way you're responding is way out of proportion to what's happening right now, right? Um and there was a lot of deeper work to do there. But um, yeah, spilled milk was really just one of the things that I'm like, you know what, now there's spilled milk and I'm like, or it's not milk anymore, you know, it's something else. But if there's a drink spilled or a mess made, it's I think my kids still instinctively, like if they're around, will look at me, like to see is she is she can yell. And um, and I'm able to say, no, just we'll just wipe it off. Um, and that feels like a really small change, but man, that was big for me. Um, because it meant a lot. Um, because I was out of control, but I can now look and say, yep, I spoiled milk was definitely one of those things that I thought was the end of the world and it really wasn't. Um and the other one is socks. Like I feel like I only just in the last like year, this is wild, right? After parenting for 26 years, I um I'm a mentor mom for a group called Mom The Mom Co. Um you may have heard of it, it was previously called Mops. And so we have a, you know, uh we meet every couple weeks and um you know have a lot of young moms, moms of you know, kids uh you know under pre under kindergarten age, and you know, and we often you know talk about the the challenges of of mothering young kids and you know the the wild crazy stories and then just the practical tips as well. And and one of them just shared like, yeah, I I don't match my kids' socks. Like that that that's like kind of crazy. Like it would take so much time. And why would I do that? We just have a bit of socks in front of the door. Yeah, yes. And I'm like That's insane. That is insane and brilliant. Brilliant. If I think of all the time that I spent and how annoyed I was when there were missing socks and how frustrated I got with my kids because, you know, there were socks everywhere, the socks didn't match, you know, like we couldn't like, you know, fold them all together. And and now I'm like, I could have saved myself all of that work and pain and stress. And we could have just put all the socks in a bin and everyone just picked two socks. It doesn't matter if they match or not, right? Like, why does it matter? I think people nowadays wear like different socks because it's fashionable.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

And I'm like, Yeah, I am so like I have to be honest, I am still in that part of my life where when I see my son come out wearing a black sock and a white sock, I'm like, I just matched you socks. Turn around and go find match socks, you know?

SPEAKER_02 37:37

Yeah, I mean, I was like, what does it matter?

SPEAKER_01 37:39

I'm putting shoes on, and I'm like, it matters. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

I like I I get it because I lived my life like that. Like, that's how I raised my kids. And now I'm like, it was not worth it. It was not worth it. Like, if you want to go out there, you know, and I think I was worried a little, like, what you know, what would it say about me as a mom? Yeah, was that part? And also, like, you wouldn't like my kid wouldn't be together and what lessons would they be learning? And sure, like if you're going to an occasion where you need matched socks, like absolutely, but just in the day-to-day, and especially when they're so little, um, it really doesn't matter. Like when they're two and three and four, you know, like does it really matter that their socks are matched? Um, you know, you put all those little socks in a bin and you just pick two. And if you pick two that are matched, or if you kind of dig a little to match them, good for you. But um, anyway, that was one of the things recently that I'm just like, wow, I could have saved myself a lot of unnecessary like stress. Just by having a sock bin. And everyone, you just put your socks in the sock bin. And if you can't find the socks you want, that's not on me. You know. Anyway, that that would be that would be a recent, a recent discovery from someone who you know is has adult kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Hey, I'll have to tell my therapist about that. I might need to work on that. Yeah. Because it drives me nuts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yeah. And there's probably a good reason for that, right? Because you're like, being. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

And I tell my son all the time, because like he will, he has to have these expensive shoes. And then he like draws on like the soles and stuff, and it drives me nuts because before I was adopted, like, I didn't have socks and shoes. My brother's 10 years older than me. My biological brother is 10 years older than me. And he would like fashion his tube socks, like so that they would kind of like fit me. And then he would like double nod like some other socks. And we lived in Ohio in the snow, you know, like, and so I'm like, dude, you have all these socks that I just bought for you. And you have, I just bought a hundred and twenty dollar pair of shoes that you had to have.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Like, and you just drew them.

unknown 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

And it like sends my blood pressure up. And I I just at this point, I look at my husband and I'm like, you have to deal with that because I know, like, I can't have a reasonable conversation with him because I'm too deep in my feelings, because I know it's coming from my childhood. Yeah. And it has nothing to do with the fact that, yeah, my kids just like, I he's never experienced that. So why would he care? Mom and dad are just gonna buy him more shoes in a couple months. So these shoes get thrown away to him. They're not a precious commodity like they were to me, you know? And I just I I know it's a problem, but like I said, I might have to tell my therapist, look, now we gotta work on the mix, the mixed socks.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

And I and I would just rename that, right? You said you know it's a problem. And I like that's my thinking too, but like, no, it's not a problem, it's data. And you know, getting to the point where I can recognize that something that I'm learning about myself or something that I'm like picking up is data and not necessarily like good or bad or right or wrong. Um has also been really helpful because some things they are data, they're trying to show us. They're it's like this is data, this is this is this is something you get to use and work with and figure out more of your true story. This is data. Absolutely. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Yeah, and I think that calling it something different. I I can see how calling it data instead of a problem, you kind of would approach it differently in your mind too. Yeah. Because if I go into something thinking about, okay, this is just I'm doing like an analytical process, I need to gather data and I need to make adjustments where it's required. That is something that my logical point A to B brain can really handle. But if I go in and my boss says, oh, there's a problem and there's a fire with this and this and this and this needs done. And I I'm I'm not looking at it as analytically, I'm looking at it as like the whole picture instead of the one thing that I need to be focused on that actually is solving the pro like the actually solving the issue and moving forward and giving us a realization. So I I can see how that works. That's that's a wonderful idea. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, if we very we very seldom listen to our inner voices, right? We um, you know, it because it's because it's just inside of us and it's we you know, we've heard it since we've existed. And so excuse me, we're so familiar with it that we, you know, don't ever really think about it. But if we start consciously listening to that voice um inside of us, I think often we find, um, especially before we've done any kind of healing work, and if we have trauma in our childhood, and not even just big tea trauma, but little tea trauma, which most of us have, um, if we start listening to that voice, um, we start recognizing that it's really unkind and it's harsh and it's critical. And that's just not going to help us move towards a compassionate place of healing, right? Um, because we need kindness towards ourselves. The very reason we're so harsh is because we didn't have the kindness and the compassion that we needed. And so we needed to start learning to survive and have that harsher voice. And so if we just, you know, are able to start listening to that voice as the first step and pick up like you keep telling yourself, like, that was so stupid of me, or I did that again. I cannot believe I did that again. What is wrong with me? When will I learn my lesson? Why can't I change? Why can't I do things differently? We have those voices going in our heads all the time. And they're just not helpful to us, you know, and they're, you know, a similar thing to, you know, you saying, well, that was a problem, instead, no, that's data. You know, like instead of what's wrong with me, well, what happened to me? Why am I behaving this way?

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Why, why was that just such a natural response, right? Um So yeah, I think if we just start listening to the voice inside our heads, uh, we will get a lot more data. Um, but we need to listen with kindness and compassion um and gentle towards ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Absolutely. And I think it's it's like you said, we kind of beat ourselves up internally, and it takes like a thousand good jobs to take away one, you know, you're terrible. Yeah. And you know, I was reading an article just the other day that said smiling at yourself randomly during the day in a mirror for like two to three seconds is actually like boosting your mood and it actually has cardiovascular like benefits. And I was like, why would that help your heart at all? And I'm continuing to read this, and it's because it helps lower your cortisol levels, which helps lower your blood pressure, and so forth and so on. And I was like, that is crazy to just you smile at yourself while you're walking past a mirror for two to three seconds and you keep moving and you just do it a few times every every time you pass the mirror, or you know, a couple times when you pass the mirror during the day. And it actually has health benefits. And I thought about it and I said, Well, okay, that actually makes sense because you're giving yourself the positive reinforcement externally by seeing it, you know, instead of internally saying, Okay, you did a good job on this, you're good, keep moving. The kids are good, your husband's good, this is good. No, you're actually seeing on your face, hey, you're happy, good job, keep it up. And that is having health benefits. And I think as parents and especially moms, we could all use our cortisol levels to go down.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah, totally. And you know, I think when like when do we actually like smile at ourselves in the mirror? Like hardly ever. We're usually when we're looking in the mirror, we're being critical. We're like, oh, you know, there's that new wrinkle, or you know, I don't like this about my face, or you know, or you're harsh with yourself, pull it together, come on, like what's wrong with you? And and I think we just I mean, I don't know which of us stares at the mirror and is like smiling at ourselves and thinking good thoughts about ourselves. Um, very few, I would, I would guess. And so the simple act, you know, I love hearing that, that there's research around that now. The simple act of just looking at ourselves and smiling and smiling, a kind smile and looking into our eyes and saying, I see you. You're here. Yeah. I'm doing it. You're okay. You got this. Yeah. I mean, I think that's huge. Um so huge to you if you do that a couple times a day, like, you know, and then also reminder to us, like to do that for other people, right? Yeah. Um it doesn't it doesn't cost us anything. And I know we read it all the time, and you know, smile is free and all that stuff. But if we actually like take it to heart and are like, well, this is so valuable to me, when I do it to myself and when I when other people do it, you know, for me, that I like it's it is free for me to give away and like the difference that I'll make by just looking someone in the eyes and you know, without saying a word, saying, I see you and you're okay and you're good and you're valuable. Like just a look saying those things, um, I think could make a really huge difference to people.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Yeah, and the reality is it's kind of like you were saying earlier, if you don't have enough in your cup, you can't pour into other people's cup. Well, if you're not being very kind to yourself, you don't have enough kindness to share with the world. Totally. You know? So it it's one of those things where you do have to find that balance where you're at least happy enough with yourself that and sometimes you do get happiness from the external like sources, and that's that's totally great. Like I was having a horrible day last week, and my son and I went to the grocery store after school real quick, and there was an older gentleman putting stuff in his trunk, and and when I say older, he was probably like 80. He had pop on the bottom of his cart, and my son goes, he was parked next to us, so my son goes, Sir, you know, would you like me to help you? And he was like, That would be great. So my son helps put it all in his trunk and takes the cart back and comes back to get in the car. And the gentleman tries to hand my son like $10 or $20, I can't remember. And my son said, Oh no, sir, I can't take that. You have a great day, be safe going home, you know, and it just lit up my day because even though I was having a bad day and all I wanted to do was get in, get out, get the tortilla shells and the avocado that I'd forgot and be done with the day. And then hear my son just a simple act of kindness.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

And it just, I was beaming from I mean, I was smiling from ear to ear because I was just like, oh my goodness. Like he he pays attention. Like he watches his dad, he watches his mom, he sees that we put kindness into the world, and he is doing it, you know. And and that made me feel so good that I really honestly kind of forgot all about my bad day.

unknown 49:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

And you can bet it made a huge impact on that man, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

Oh, absolutely, you know, and to my son, it was nothing.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

You know, he's like, we were right there.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

And I'm like, okay, you know, I just wanted to say thank you, and I'm really proud of you. You know, he's like, All right, you're being weird. Yeah. Keep moving.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Yeah.

unknown 49:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

You know, and and I think I think that's kind of normal. And we love when other people tell us about our kids. And, you know, when you go to open house and they're like, oh, your kid's amazing, and this and that. And you're like, sometimes I look at them and I'm like, are we talking about the same child? Yeah. And then other times I'm like, oh, that's really, really nice, you know. And it just depends on what kind of day we're having and things like that. And and honestly, what class it is, too, because I get suspicious when it's certain classes.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but you've raised four kids and you still have a teenager at home. I do. Would you say both going deeper into your own story has changed how you're parenting your youngest versus how you parented the older kids?

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Uh, I mean, definitely. And I think even without any healing, I think you ask anyone who has raised kids, you know, over time that the way you parent your oldest and your youngest is very different, right? Because you learn you learn a lot along the way, right? Your own movie as you start. Um and, you know, I think it's it's not perfect by any means, right? I would you'd be totally lying if I was like, oh, and then I finally got it right on number four. Um, because that's certainly not the case. But I think I am far more aware of um of her and her emotions and and of me and my emotions and how they're playing in to a situation. And so I'm not overreacting because of me as much. Uh she's not getting as much of the, you know, the the triggering on my behalf um because of things that she's doing. So that part I'd say is definitely different. And, you know, she's definitely getting a far more humble mom who is able to own the things that she has done wrong far more easily. Um so yeah, I'd say those are probably two big ones and how things are different. Um but again, you know, not perfect and um still making mistakes every day, but um but learning.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Absolutely. Well, I just have a couple more questions for you. And this one I I just I have a different opinion on this upcoming one. Um, do you think that we sometimes try to protect our kids from experiencing things that we may have experienced as children, and we accidentally create different problems for our children?

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Yeah, I mean, I think it's totally appropriate to for us to not want them to, you know, do the same things we did. Um, and we were their parents, we're trying to protect them, we love them. Um, you know, is that gonna be worse for them? Is it gonna, you know, create another problem? Maybe. Um, I don't think we know that for sure. I think, you know, my advice would be just to to be as honest as we can with them and to just, you know, I think that's what they would respond to the most. Instead of don't do this thing, or I wouldn't do this thing if I were you, or you know, that's bad for you. Um maybe just share like this is something that I did and I wish I hadn't done it, and this is why. And I would love for you to choose a different path. I'd love for you to do things differently. But obviously, depending on the age, the stage, what what whatever you're talking about, you know, maybe you have a choice and you get to make this choice. Um, and I do hope you do it differently. Um, you know, or say if it's not a choice, then making that clear too. But but you know, I think there's this kids can connect to us, or anyone really, any human can connect to us far more if we're honest and authentic and you know, and just say, you know what, hey, I'd rather you didn't do this and here's why, instead of don't do it, you know. Um, because there's a bottom in all of us that's like, well, now I'm gonna do it. Um yeah, I think just being honest and and vulnerable and sharing why, you know, why. Um and sometimes you may be conscious of why, but you can just say, trust me, I've walked this road and it did not go well. And yeah, absolutely. If you've built a good relationship, then they would respond to that.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Yeah, and I know with like my kids, for example, I started smoking when I was like 11 years old. And then my kids, they were always like, it's gonna kill you, it's gonna kill you. They hated it, right? Which I was like, good, I want you to hate it. And we constantly would always tell them, don't even pick them up, don't pick up a lighter, don't smell them, don't look at them, you know, you don't want to do this. And they're like, Well, you're a hypocrite. And I'm like, absolutely. I'm not gonna lie to you and tell you I'm not. Yeah, I am. And I'm telling you right now, this is just not a path I want you to go down. I'm making this mistake and I don't want you to. And then a couple years ago, I just decided, well, I'm done. I'm done smoking. I'm tired of hearing the kids. Like, I'm tired every time I go out to smoke. They're like plotting and scheming. So I'm done. Like, and I I, you know, I quit smoking. And my husband still smokes, and I guess he just wants to tolerate the kids, whatever. But, you know, I look at that and I'm like, okay, that's a a a situation where I did something and I've done it from my past, and I was able to be honest with my kids and say, yes, I'm being a hypocrite because I'm doing this, but I don't want you to do it. And then I was also able to show them, look, mom can change too. You know, so that's a situation where I think is good, but then I also look at it a little differently on a grander scale. Because we grow like, because I grew up from, for example, um, very poor and stuff like that in the early stages of my life, and I have so much trauma from that, my kids are so sheltered and they are so spoiled and they don't even recognize how spoiled they are. And my husband always tells me, they're not spoiled, they're just kids. And I'm like, but to me, that's being spoiled. Having your parents give you $100 a month for an allowance is spoiled to me. Like, because you do laundry and take out the recycle that deserves $25 a week. What? Like, you know, wow, you mowed the backyard. Yay! Well, it's just it's one of those things. Like, for me, I'm like, that's a privilege, you know. You getting $120 shoes instead of the $10, you know, ones from Walmart or whatever, that's a privilege.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

And my husband's like, no, that's just what we do as parents, you know. We buy the MacBook for our daughter because she's going to college and that's what she needs for her notes, you know, because she bats her eyelashes. And I'm like, but we're creating this problem of now, it's like they they know what a budget is, and theoretically, they know how to do a budget on paper. Yeah. But they don't actually know how to budget, you know. And it's it's one of those things where, you know, my daughter, when she wanted a new cell phone, she saved up her paychecks to get a new cell phone. And that's great. But she also didn't pay her insurance on time that month or her current cell phone bill. Right. And and she just pays us and it's like minimal, you know. But it's just the point. It's like we knew she was saving for the phone, so we kind of just let it slide. And even that was a discussion between the parents. Yeah. Because I'm like, we're not teaching her anything by letting her slide. We should make her wait to the next paycheck. Yeah. You know, she should have to earn more. And it's just one of those things where I'm like, I get it though, because she has worked really hard and her phone does suck. Like you know, so we kind of created this other problem. And I think as parents, it's like you said, we want our kids loved, we want our kids safe, we don't want our kids to experience things that we've experienced. So in turn, our kids not learning the right skills to be an adult or how to handle certain situations that they may encounter in the real world.

SPEAKER_02 58:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, obviously it looks differently, you know, for a lot of families, but I think you, you know, you need to do what feels good and right to where you are and where your kids are. Um and it's again, it's gonna be different for everyone. But um But yeah, I think, you know, just by being again, by being honest and and kind, I think you you go a long way.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and our last question for the day from the mom who's listening and realizes, oh no, I'm doing this because something that happened to me, what do you think is the first step that they could take to toward changing that pattern without com consistently beating themselves up?

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Yeah, so again, I've said it over and over again, but I will repeat it because it takes, it takes so much for us to change this element. But I think for us to be compassionate and kind to ourselves as we're curious about, wait a minute, could this have come from somewhere? And so I would just encourage anyone who feels like, oh, maybe there is more in my childhood that is, you know, responsible for this or that's causing this or that's why I'm acting the way I'm acting. I would just say, get a big piece of paper, um, get a poster board, a blank piece of paper, blank piece of cardboard, you know, from a shipping box, and just do a long timeline and just start by um just noting some things down on the timeline that you remember from your childhood. And, you know, the more our our brains do that, the more we start remembering things and writing them down, the more it'll start remembering. Um, our bodies are amazing and brilliant in that way. And so you then get to start gathering more pieces and putting them together, and then you get to take those pieces to someone that you trust. Um, you know, I created uh a journal called the Untangling Your Story Journal, which helps you, you know, it has timelines, it has prompted questions to help you just start remembering, and then you need to take what your body's starting to tell you, and you go to people, safe people, again, whether that's a counselor or a pastor or a mentor or a friend, um, and you, you know, you start, you start sharing and you start processing and you start entangling. Um, there are so many resources, so many ways to do it. And um, yeah, if you want to go to my website, I've got a ton of books and podcasts there that you can start listening to and reading. That's Michelleconson.com. That's M I-C-H-E-L-L-E-K-O-N-S-O-N.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

So wonderful. And do you have any socials like Facebook, Instagram, or anything?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:51

Very easy to find because my name's unusual. It's just Michelle Conson. So Michelle Constant on Facebook and Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Yep. Wonderful. And we'll put those links and your handles and everything in the show notes. So, guys, if you want to check those out, they'll be just down in the show notes. So thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciated it. Yeah, of course. It was fun being with you. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Well, you have a good day. Thanks, you too. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

Well, that's it for today, you beautiful caffeinated disasters. If any of this resonated with you, hit that follow button. And if you would, please leave us a review. It really helps other tired moms and dads find the show. And if you want to become a supporter of the show, or just keep us caffeinated so we can keep bringing the chaos every Tuesday, head over to our bus prop page at mom's brain is a coffee stain.com. Even a couple bucks means the world and helps us keep the coffee and the show flowing. Now you can become a subscriber of the show and get access to new episodes two days early. Don't forget, check us out on social media. You can find us everywhere at momsbrain is a coffee stain. Also, slide into our DMs or email us your best no guilt hacks, cringiest mom or dad moments, and episode requests at momsbrain is a coffee stain at outlook.com. Guys, head over and check out Michelle's website at Michelleconson.com. You can also visit Michelle's Instagram, which is also at Michelle Conson. We will put all of the links below in the show notes. Well, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the grocery store. Love y'all. Mean it. Go sip one for us, and we'll see you next Tuesday.